phone, at the door, why your mail looks the way it does. because the amount of sophistication of the human mind would shock you. >> host: thank you so much. the secret science of winning campaigns is provocative and playing the groundwork for things to come. thank you for doing this. are you doing this going forward? >> i am reporting for slate. especially right teeing about the nuts and bolts. it is a fun time i will be out on election day. >> we

will hear about it when the election is over. >> guest: thank you for having me.

>> let me start tonight to ask you come at you focus on nine women per know-how do so let them? >> -- how did you select them? we could have done more but with the confine of the book you could only do so much. democrats, republicans, diff erent ages. we knew on the basis of nine you could not make generalizations that were 100% certain. conclusions were hypotheses that other people run with.

in order to make that hypothesis we needed a diverse group. >> we also included women that was the white house project so several with men that the white house project identified olympia snowe, kathleen sebelius sebelius, they want to consider the notion with her foundation that talk about women governors. that have been through the training through the pipeline. >> we also made the observation when a male is elected to the senator ship he is a hopeful scott

brown was not even sworn been and scott brown 2012.com was already purchase. but so many women had been in washington as legislators working on important work but we were curious why not? >> how did you decide to write the book? you have studied similar topics but how did that come about? >> i guess it was my idea. my parents still remember my sister and by staging the annexing kennedy debate. [laughter] mitel a fined beat her rabbit. [laughter]

but it was the magazine issues coming out way it in advance to preview the eight or 10 or 12 people who ought to be considered and it struck me with men were not being presidential. evander and addis an academic that was the origin of the book. >> ted originally proposed this so you can take conference papers in to a

publication. we each did two with men there was an editor who was in the audience who said can you expand this? we said sure. then it was picking and choosing the. >> often i hear people say i don't know who they are. little known on the national stage. why not? >> i think and know the answer. is there a double standard the way with men are covered by the news media and how they are judged by their appearance? [laughter] yes. >> he knew the answer.

one of my co-authors did an article looking at the news coverage of hillary clinton and the sexes them. it was appalling my husband said you are making it up. but it is worse than you think. we really did have some of that. >> is more complicated for women to present themselves physically because there is a lack of a legacy. to say this is what a woman

president looks like from what she stands for or plans to do as president. >> it is not just something that affects women is against people that are short but those candidates as opposed to the men candidates. they will get attention because of his way to. the he will not rule and -- be ruled out. a woman might be. >> a good example was elizabeth edwards burger she was ridiculed for her weight and appearance even after

she died some appointed to her appearance. it is a good example of the scrutiny they feel when they run for office or as the spouse's candidate. >> i cannot remember a single time someone said why is the president not wearing a suit or why as governor romney wearing jeans? i had a candidate who was known for wearing gucci loafers. that is the only example i can think of. >> jimmy carter wore the blue jeans. but nothing like what women go through. since kathleen sebelius told of the debate and that ap

writer talk about the color of the toenail polish. this was the lead. if you remember when michelle bachmann was running there were photographs of the fat -- french nails if it was appropriate the way they were shaped. then nancy pelosi when she first became speaker there resists series of snapshots wearing pearls. nobody has ever done six types of necktie is.

but what you wear can send a message but four men there quickly pushed aside. more casual or uptight but dianne feinstein has fine fashion taste early in her career headed tough time to get people to think she had any understanding of the problems of sand princess go because her attire screamed she was from a wealthy part of the city. heard tire was sending a message. >> what are the other key differences women face other than men?

>> there are so many. [laughter] the fact a woman needs credentials of the highest caliber where a man who just comes on to the national scene perhaps just elected senator can be seen as presidential where she needs to be a governor. with keys to the governor's mansion it is not acceptable for women to just the elected from a senate decision. she would need more than bad. that is the highest level to accept a thinner resume from the male candidate. >> and mail candidate could

apply eight then the foreign policy. but we interviewed most of the women in the book. on the senate of foreign relations committee. but standing next to the generals and elizabeth dole said it almost wrecked my car after the iowa straw poll when elizabeth did well. they had around to it -- roundtable the next morning to talk about her surprising strong finish but

she was there a lot with her husband was there. she has no commander-in-chief background. what has she done? i almost wrecked my car at that point*. >> women have to worry about being too feminine. either way they go there are problems. men have to worry about appearing to feminine but no one will say he is too masculine. it is a lot more complicated. but to be more aggressive to be labeled in some way. there are barriers that

where they are caught were men are free to move. >> also those surrogates elizabeth dole was a good example she had her own plane and crisscross the country by have not seen the male spouse at the caliber of the women we have had. it is fair to say bill clinton was hillary clinton's best ally and worst detractor. also bob dole had trouble with the surrogate role. the spouse of a woman running we describe him as a

denis thatcher quiet in the background not the making in the gaffes to the press. we have not seen that yet. >> the role has not been defined. they don't know the role. >> hillary clinton and elizabeth dole their staffers are prominent politicos. they want to get in there. >> very interesting. we talk at the outset about nine different women.

i actually one to three view to develop time to have a direct relationship. one of them is the most prominent. each of you took the lead. so if they would start then the other two could jump 10. >> when they know with like to mention about elizabeth dole is her prepared this. i like a speaker who is prepared and she is known to prepare extremely well. i interviewed her twice and bob dole he was a little bit funny. i said tell me senator how you prepare for your

speeches. i give them once. that is why i am not in the good. but in contrast elisabeth i can hear her voice coming out of the kitchen she is practicing her speech for tomorrow. she will practice it one more time. i have seen her. she is engaging and then at -- in his excellent. she has all the qualities of a good speaker. but her perfectionism was cast as a negative. the press would write counting how many steps to the podium. that is good to know the yet to that was seen as over the prepared. male candidates would be described as on message. that is a big drawback.

it was not her fault. but it is to come prepared and speak well. >> that is one way she was penalized. that is a big drawback she won the senate position sheet -- seat a would have qualified her more that was a drawback when other thing she was so strong in the eyes of the american people as the spouse of bob dole because of her campaigning for him. i ain't people had a hard

time looking at her as a candidate. because she was the wife of bob dole. >> bilal list site white house senior staff, cabinet secretary to the president. >> and president of the american red cross, the mandatory -- humanitarian organization. secretary of labor, and often she would recounting her biography to establish her ef- dose but for the three reasons she had a hard time. >> secretary kathleen sebelius? i added chance to spend

quite a bit of time talking to her. from 2004 she had only been in office decouple years there is already rumors of the vice presidential candidate for john kerry. apparently vilsack and the staff went to secretary of agriculture they thought they were both interviewed but she said she was not abetted by the campaign. here is a democrat they forgot they had more democrats but the press does

not have historical memory so this was an anomaly father with the ohio connection she captured the national attention very quickly and with showcase her at conventions but by 2008 she was a serious contender for price president pro when she endorsed obama that also moved up her stock. she was one of the last three or four people obama was considering. there were things against her. she is not an exciting

speaker. it was not a bill clinton's speech. very measured. levying off of the teleprompter. saw lead information off the cuff she is different. she is savaged with the press and i actually brought up clip of jonge to work -- jon stewart on "the daily show" lampooning the speech she gave in response to the president bush "state of the union." it was not well done. jon stewart had a great time.

from the communication perspective she is not that inspirational. and that is a lot of what was written she will not bring a lot. she did not have foreign policy experience. she said that made the difference with joe biden was born policy and she agreed it was essential. but now she is a cabinet secretary and knows where that will take her? >> the third is senator made the castle on. >> and was four several reasons. the first woman elected to the senate in her own right.

there was an article of the women in congress over his dead body. there are still quite a few but margaret chase smith she followed her husband and took it over. she was the first who did not follow a spouse it was a high leave visible race even the london newspaper commented the day after the election. one woman in the senate. she got a lot of attention that two years later she was in a temporary chair at the national convention people talk to your as a national force.

she had a lot going for her and if you remember nancy castlebaum the perfect example the way they woman politician should be. very forceful but fnn at the same time. one day they were not giving her the answer she wanted. she shook her head and said maybe you did not understand my question. [laughter] okay that is closer. maybe i can become more specific. she kept after him until she got the answers to was aggressive but she smiled

and it was in a feminine way. running for the senate for the first time at one advertisement she was pumping gas wearing negative shirt waist dress. dennis second one talking about the price of groceries and appealing to family is. she had the common touch but some things that held her back was she was a moderate. she was on the short list were george hw bush when she found that out and there was polling done she was the top

choice she asked to have her name removed because she had disagreed with reagan several times and bush would follow the policies and she felt the president needed someone he could agree with and it would not be comfortable for them with too much of a difference of opinion. >> the fourth person is dianne feinstein. >> kathleen hall jamieson from the university of pennsylvania is a communications dollar. several years ago she wrote to a number of binds that

women are in when they run for public office. i think dianne feinstein is able to overcome the double by yes. for example,, early in her career and san francisco as mayor a lot of attention was paid to her entire hand how expensive and somebody noticed she looked like snow white. [laughter] of that has stayed with her through the years. one year she was being considered for the presidency with seven diminutive candidates. [laughter] just like snow white and the seven dwarfs.

but as she matured she would look very state labor grotius very tall and sufficiently feminine but it makes her look like a highly successful businesswoman. careful attention to the attire but she found a way it is interesting comparing her style of barbara boxer newspaper accounts if she knows their politics and style, barbara boxer as an aggressive style.

if you know, the research that is out there on the feminine style it is a classic example. the feinstein style is different. is very lawyerly. she presents evidence it is assertive, a strong but not overly aggressive. she avoids problems with women manages to finesse all of those that they talked about. what hurt her that the chapter begins she is not a

moderate but really an independent. some of positions are what liberal democrats do not like. capital punishment. on the other hand, that republicans do not like. some issues she is here's some she is there. the primary process is such in the primary process those democrats do not think she is not democratic enough. they call her a closet republican, i think ralph nader democrat in republican clothing. perp independent modern

politics disqualified her. as a generalization but many women go into politics because they want to get something done. there is a problem. they applied to solve it and kraft legislative solutions. men get into politics because they like they game. she has worked long and hard to solve problems. in a cooperative way she can be very strong but is always in her career in san princess go try to solve

problems. it is unfortunate if you try to solve problems you accumulate a record that will make you unpopular with the party extreme. she took the positions that made sense those that caused her to ultimately not get consideration. she was almost the vice-presidential nominee 1984 with walter mondale. she said long ago but the way she conducted her political life. >> key factor of why a woman has not been elected president? >> there has not been enough

and the pipeline. if the governor runs for president here she is not into the legislative issues that disqualified that could help them. we need more women governors. of lack of critical mass of credentials to get them into the white house. >> proverbial woman governor who has spent time in congress war serving on a committee to bring the foreign policy to not have the kathleen sebelius or elizabeth dole problem. >> many people have a difficult time envisioning a woman in the white house.

we need to think in those terms. television shows have shown us that broker. >> we did a poll in the asked over 500 college-age women with hillary clinton and sarah palin and helps them to think it will then would be president in their lifetime. the results indicate yes. the more women who run the more likely young women believe the one will be president. we need more women to get into the pipeline. >> kathleen sebelius said allot of young women would

talk to her about politics but it would say i don't know if i can do it, if i unqualified, if i am capable. she said men don't say that. every last one logo to congress. there is not the lack of self-confidence the young women. so many of the women were in politics were in because of something. barbara mikulski getting into save her neighborhood from a high way. i was in washington four years ago and the books

pearls, power, and politics along with other women politicians got in with some issues. with one it was the crosswalk for her kids to get to school safely. castlebaum started out on the school board. if you can get women to get and at that level it starts the confidence that it is hard something that struck me that is not in the book up until recently the women were maurer symbolic candidates. they did not think the had a

chance to win. hillary clinton thought she had a chance to end. and once upon a time many african-americans ran for the presidency thought of themselves as symbolic. that has changed my riding as a simple that i am running seriously now we will see women not just making a gesture. >> i have one last question i will ask one of my student workers if they are able to sell the book.

i know everybody wants to buy one. before it opened to your question name 102 with men who are in the pipeline that are out there that might be a serious candidate for president? >> debbie wasserman schulz. i have heard her speak running ahead dnc and she is a very articulate spokesperson for democrats. i would watch her. >> two things. first, four years is a long time. who in 1972 would predict jimmy carter 1976?

who would bought barack obama would be standard bearer? it could be somebody weird not even thinking of. i have a hard time thinking of the name because it strikes me we see women who were part of second wave feminism, i tried to make a statement, reach that point* where they are retiring although it did not stop john mccain. how women politically age there was a gap between that

generation and a new group coming up. also and nikki haley. she has managed south carolina barry well. the advantage of ethnicity bringing diversity to the republican party one could argue it needs diversity. >> we all looked at one another when bill asked the question. the pipeline is a little thin. susanna marty thence the governor of the mexico that we tend to reelect more governors and members of

congress i think that is the pipeline very articulate -- particulate but give her six years and has potential. and elizabeth warren sheet is is elected there are a couple. we just need to get more women elected. research that has been done that says to make any kind of difference you need 25%. part of the culture comes as competition more women have the opportunity.

because the women we profile in the book who were still in congress are not running again. the women are giving up hour don't see themselves to compromise. >> for various reasons with nrg being seats in the house is easier for anybody to get elected to the house or the state house. women with local issues pushing women into the house there is a precedent in the country electing somebody

with their own may experience is in the house. don't tell the members of the house but it is thought to be the minor leagues pro they don't really know national issues because they only serve the local constituents. except gerald ford who was not elected women may be getting into the house with that man not get them into the white house. with governors and senators. >> will open to questions and answers. >> let's give the students a chance to ask questions. >> do you deal with the

issue of children and have you do that? that is an important image and at what age. >> the women in our book all have adult children and did not get into politics in a serious way. kathleen sebelius ran for the house after her children were in school but did not run for governor until one was a college policies children were well raised. >> she asked her 16 year-old daughter it was okay. that was the youngest child. >> castlebaum did not run until hurt kids ran college

high-school i think it is an issue once again for women. looked at sarah palin and number of women when we did the article who criticized palin's for not being a good mother because she had grown children. my mother can't sing at of know how she could be vice president and have a baby. but with them mail it is the wife to take care of the children. >> is the double bias this sequence to be another first political after is one way to handle the issue. dianne feinstein has a daughter but people probably

did not know because she was off to the side she had very good day care. who that is another way to handle it. gets allot of day-care. [laughter] >> but murkowski says the whole state is hurt children. and in merrill lynch the entire state is her family. >> you are very unlikely to elect a woman that has never been married. >> if the children are liability if they get into trouble than the press will

blame bad mother rate over bad father and. >> we have seen the male leaders around the world just like angela merkel and what is different there? >> we said another country's there is the equal amount of male and female in the polls to run for elective office also family legacy in some countries part of the leadership. we are lagging behind. the parliamentary system makes it much more easier than our system and constitution states exactly what percentage of parliament and i raise the

question why do you think from the european countries and someone said the monarchy. they are used to queens. there is something to that or ghandi who is father and benazir bhutto. we don't add any of those. >> two countries are arguably like us, canada with only one female prime minister and australia only now. so you see the same dynamics it only now zero occurs. and the sole prime minister

she really in countered a lot of those problems with she ran for leader of the party then from the election shortly thereafter. her attire, a marital history, the fact she was dating somebody, those two cultures are the same things. women have to juggle more through life. what about the future may be

they start later they don't get to that far up? is it the advantage in the future? >> the book i wrote about elizabeth dole describes her rhetorical multitasking and even then she has not held children days had children but the way she juggled burbles with duties they could address a number of constituents when they give this speech. elizabeth dole would speak about the american red cross president she could propose what she would do as president how they were

consensus building to juggle so many roles so perhaps there is something to that previous families move to more egalitarian my it is probably better received if it does i just want to follow-up if you did not realize it chile, nicaragua, and showing that. >> could point*. do not skip anybody. if they were first get to

them but do not skip the students. >> similar to what you're talking about i have noticed women could be critiqued if it is a bad family or not normal like the lady who with single while they cannot play the card of a successful family. i have heard people critique hillary clinton and bill clinton because they think bill clinton's support of the democratic party in this election is only sell hillary could have a better chance in the next election. she is not allowed to use her family to promote her campaign but the man could. at the same time she could

be critiqued for having a bad family. >> good point*. >> if you assume the clinton marriage had not had difficulty. [laughter] i think the general public blames hillary more than bill. i think if bill clinton could run again, he would be elected. but there are still nagging questions of the relationship and family baggage. >> this follows the track because the media plays a crucial role what it buys would you give a woman when she receives very public criticism? >> the best way is a sense

of humor castlebaum was very good at this not criticism but so much attention on being the only woman. yes it is so difficult to be the only woman in the senate to may sure the clothes are pressed and the joke about it then then people criticize her for being soft-spoken if anybody does that one more time i will hit them if you could approach that with humor bob dole was so good at that we teach communication telling

students humor is the best way to deflect the intense situation. >> when elizabeth dole made the exploratory bid bob dole created negative press release said he would get $1,000 to john mccain. [laughter] just because your wife runs for president this not mean you cannot support another candidate. she said she would send him out to the woodshed to penalize him. he rear is the best way. >> there are two kinds of negativity. negative press and the humor is a good way but but on

legitimate matters you need to respond directly and fairly strong way. but i would sort the criticism of. you just cannot ignore legitimate criticism. >> is it more difficult for women to get elected one party over the other? >> i don't see the difference. there are more republican women governors. i think this pretty balanced. party does not seem to matter. there are strong women in both parties.

>> in the last presidential election it appeared the existing president brutalized hillary clinton. that is what the press is saying. is it easier for women to be negative and a male candidate or the mail on the female? does the press treat that the same way? how does that come across? >> when there is more of a backlash research would suggest if a woman attacks she is labeled overly aggressive. both are hurt but in slightly different ways.

>> and the vice-presidential debate with a larger audience in the presidential debate everybody was waiting for by then to insult sarah palin. he was very well-behaved. there is research that shows to keep it from 191 women 10 to two run more negative ads if it is not the direct attack is a little easier. >> talk about a second wave of feminism with a gap of second and thith a gap of second and third i read a

book girls don't cry. written by feminist who criticize hillary not calling on her feminism of more. . . >> i am think she should call attention to her trailblazing

efforts because i think too many women your age cannot relate to some of the obstacles that you faced. more women than men are in law school and medical schools now and so, when that'll elizabeth dole would describe how she was one of 24 women at harvard law school, it's really an older notion at this point and i think it distances her from the younger audiences. so i don't think it's a good idea for women candidates to keep describing the obstacles they face in how unique they are, because we tend to resist voting for somebody who is the first of anything because it seems scary and probably not a good idea because we have never done it before. i think taking attention away from that is better. >> and not labeling issues as women's issues or feminist issues. i think all the women in the book really didn't run as women.

there is a book called running as a woman and i can't remember the first name now but when pat schroeder ran the first time for congress out in colorado, somebody asked her, you plan his running as a woman and her response was do i have another option? [laughter] obviously we have never had a woman president so i don't think you need to make a point of it and all of these women have very successful in getting legislation through that has impacted women but they framed it in a way that it's not a woman's or a feminist kind of issue and every one of them s examples of that. if you stop and think, at one time education was considered more of a woman's issue in the legislature until in the 80's when we began connecting it to economic development. and once it became an economic development issue then it's no longer a woman's issue because she takes her children and now

it's everybody's issue. >> one thing that younger people in the audience need to understand. for us, for our generation, women and also many many men, feminist was it positive for. it was a good thing, a very good thing and so you have got these women who embraced feminism who think it's a good thing and have now discovered that it's not working anymore. the women i teach don't want to identify with some of them. it's the last thing they want to be identified with and you asked them, do you believe in this and do you believe that in this and they say yes, yes, yes and i just go well the label is a problem. we have many women wanting --

not wanting to use the label and send signals that are so skewed with the label because they know there are group of voters out there who don't see it the way our generation saw it. >> we have what time for one last question. you have had your hand up since the very beginning of the q&a session. >> how does race and ethnicity and other barriers women face and are there additional challenges that a woman of color might face? >> well, you now when shirley chisholm ran for president, in 1972, she said that voters were more sexist than racist and i think that that thinking is still holding true today. i'm not sure if my colleagues share my ideas on that. you mentioned nikki haley h. -- nikki haley heaven and ethnic

advantage. you want to expand on that? >> how do i want to expand on that? this is a difficult question because people of color want to say no, no, no, no you are wrong but i think ethnicity and race are now less of an issue than gender. i think sexual orientation is a big issue. that is an incredible hurdle for men and women alike. and, it's not just because we elected barack obama president. i think a number of things have a kurd in our society through the years. yes there is still discrimination. there is discrimination galore in our society but in politics at the high level, i don't think race and ethnicity are as much of a problem as gender is.

please feel free to say you are wrong because i am not speaking from those positions. >> nikki, ted, diana thank you all so much for a wonderful program tonight. [applause] >> air -- "hemingway's boat" everything he loved in life and loss. mr. hendrickson, what was it? >> it was a 38-foot seagoingg fishing cruiser that hemingway bought in 1934 and owned for the last 27 years of his life and

probably was the most beloved material possession that he ever owned so i thought maybe i could tell that hemingway story in a new way through the figurative storytelling device.ing devi >> and what did you find out? >> i went to cuba in 1935 and -- in 2005, excuse me. 1935 was when he had the vote. wn tishesly touched the boat, a moving experience. the boat was dry dock, on a hillside at hemingway's home, and it was in terrible condition. it looked as if it were dying of thirst and only wanted to get into water, but that further convinced me i had a story to tell through the prism of this boat because when hemingway got the boat, he was the reigning monarch of american literature. he was at the very apex, and

when he lost the boat, when he lost everything, when he killed himself by shotgun 27 years later, this boat lasted him through three wives, the nobel prize, and all his ruin, which is why it's sub titled everything he loved in life and lost. >> when it was built? >> it was built in a shipyard in brooklyn by the wheeler manufacturing company which in the 1930s was a very, very rep reputable fishing boat, cruiser boat, wooden hold construction boat company, and typical hemingway studied it out and looked for a long time before getting the boat, the exact boat he wanted, and he had it custom fitted, a stock boat, and it was fitted out to specifications, but went into the gulf stream off key west and began catching

these 850 pound marlin, and that became his refuge from the world. >> how much did it cost? >> in 1934 cost -- [inaudible] had a down payment given by the editor of a new magazine in america called "esquire" and the editor gave him $3,000 to the new dream boat if you write articles for me. >> paul, you spent time on hemmingway's family, why? >> you know, i wanted to understand all the people, not just hemingway himself who came across the boat. one of the most power. story is the story of his third son, gregly ri, who was a

doctor, but ended his life as a tran december diet and a transgender, and, yes, it is a kind of multibigraphical approach which seems to be what i know how to do. >> gregory was gigi? >> papa's nickname was gigi, and he actually became gloria. at the end of his life, he had had a complete sex change and died tragically in 2001 in a woman's jail cell in miami, and i knew him because of a washington post reporter. in 1987, i tracked down all three hemingway sons and spent time with the eldest, with the middle son, who was alive, and with gigi the third son who died

in 2001. >> one is still alive? >> yeah, patrick. he's 84. he lives in montana. he is the surviving hemingway son who had a lot to do with the life of his father's boat. >> all three sons spent time on the boat? >> absolutely. as i said, he was married four times, three wives spent time on that boat, but, you know, through a combination of our research and letters own going to the various repositories of hemingway material, i was able to find out this boat just became such a central idea to his existence. you go out there, peter, and your dmons follow you, all your problems on shore, they, as we know, they come with us.

we know about the alcohol in earnest hemingway's life, and how extensive was it, paul, and what about depression? was that a factor in the life as well? >> what? >> depression. >> oh, there's no question that hemingway suffered from what we recognize today as manic depression, bipolarrism. there was alcoholism. i think if he was alive today he might be medicated to prevent some of these things and possibly his suicide which raises a very thorny question. would he have written as brilliantly as he did if he was not suffering so much? that's a hard, hard question that too many artists have to face up to. >> paul, long time reporter for the washington post, what other topics have you written about as an author of books? >> i wrote about robert mack

that mar, a name in this city, architect of vietnam, that book published in 1996 called "the living and the dead," and i wrote a book called "sons of mississippi," the book previous to this, a study of the civil rights south and integration of james meredith at the university of ol miss. i like to pick out subjects that i feel have a lot of resonance to the culture history biography. >> and paul's most recent book national book critic circle award finalist. thank you for joining us o up next on booktv mallory factor talks about the power of government employee unions and the impact it's had on policy making. this is just under an hour.